Monday, July 21, 2008


Innocent Until Proven Guilty - Not Guilty but Not Innocent?

What actually does it mean?
In the eyes of the Court a person brought to Court to be charged is presumed to be innocent. Thus he or she, Tom, Dick or Harry or the ex TPM with followers from all over the world (former DPM and one of world's influential leaders (with great followers in this country across age,race, class and religion as one blogger puts it), shall be treated as such in the eyes of the Court until the end of the trial whereupon he or she shall be pronounced as guilty or not guilty as charged.

It is not for us to say whether he or she is guilty or not guilty. The Police being the institution entrusted to carry out the investigation of criminal cases, might have all the necessary evidence to be produced in Court. If the Police fail to do so, the person accused will be declared not guilty. But he or she might not necessarily be innocent!

Similarly with arresting a person. The Police have all the authority to arrest any suspect when the Police have reasonable grounds to believe that the suspect had committed a criminal offence as listed under the Criminal Procedure Code. Sodomy is one such case. It is an arrestable offence.

How do the Police carry out the arrest?
If there is no resistant, fair and good. If the Police believe on reasonable grounds that the suspect is about to resist the arrest, the Police can use reasonable force. What is reasonable force? It will be the use of the handcuffs. If the suspect is about to stage a fight, the Police can defend themselves and thus the use of the guns etc.

If one is not guilty in the eyes of the law, he might not be innocent at all!
Its okay to let go of all the guilty person, but the law must not punish an innocent person.

Is Anwar not guilty or is he innocent?


okaayyyy...but why did the police use topeng? Macam SWAT team aje?

also why Saiful agrees to bersumpah in masjid only after investigation is complete.Why not NOW? Buat macam bekas Menteri Besar at one time: bersumpah pegang Quran denying he ever married a second wife as accused.

I think as Muslims, we should go back to shariah law.Baru boleh convince majority Muslims (and possibly bukan Muslim in this country). A lot are reminded of the 1998 court scenes/verdicts.It can happen again.We see it too often in Hollywood and spy movies.

The question is: was Anwar just lucky or was he truly innocent?
Dear Faridah,
1. Use of topeng
Is it really true? Don't use Hollywood & spy movies as an example. Those are fantasies! Balaclavas, I was told, is part of UTK's uniform. Yes, we have SWAT team which is the UTK. Remember the commotion in 1998 caused by Anwar's men! What's wrong with acting proactively?
2. Sumpah dengan Allah ni bila2 masa boleh. B4 or after investigation doesn't make any different to Allah! Get what I mean?
3. Syariah law or Civil law?
Which syariah law u r talking about? The hudud as in PAS's connotation? The syariah law as implemented now? I have my doubts. It will be the same. Investigation will still depend on the Police. In our syariah system implemented by the present officers, ....nak bercerai pun sakit..nak jagaan anak pun...(malas nak sebut). What u study & the theories put forward by the prof. etc sometime did not appear at all in real life...
The court's verdict in the 1998 case was clear...the homosexual activities did happen BUT on technical grounds conviction was not the answer! Read all the grounds of judgment by all the Judges in the High Court, the Court of Appeal and the Federal Court. U can get that in the Malayan Law Journals or MLJ as it is commonly known.
4. Agree with U on your question. Lucky or innocent? He is not only lucky but also smart. Org tak percaya dia buat. Tapi liwat ni bukan perkara baru. Zaman Nabi Lut pun dah ada. I have seen the Dead Sea in Amman Jordan & bala yg ditimpakan oleh Allah. Kalau betul dia buat, elok dia me liwat ni satu penyakit!

Some quick responses (bukan nak sakat, OK?):

1.Topeng pic from a local Chinese daily.Source or kesahihan boleh check dgn mereka.
SWAT uniform: nothing wrong with proactive.Tapi byk benda lain kita tak proactive.Kes liwat lain tak selesai.Kes budak hilang.Kes Norita sampai ini senyap.Etc etc.

Also, nampak macam terlebih prepared/over-reacted.Itu je desas desus rakyat biasa di bawah ni.

2.On sumpah bila2.Agreed tapi rakyat nampak macam tak yakin je nak sumpah awal.I'm talking about perceptions here.

3.Syariah Law and Civil Law:
We have many syariah laws? Pada saya, apa yang digariskan dalam Quran and Hadith itulah yang patut diikut.I'm sure existing syariah laws bukan dipetik dari angin.Kalau nak modernise syariah laws, saya tak di dalam 'sekolah' itu.Orang kata pakai je DNA instead of 4 saksi.DNA tu boleh kita calit2 mana kita suka if we are in power.Nak prove orang berzina dgn 4 saksi bukan mudah.Makna tersirat is Allah beri peluang bertobat instead of bunuh terus.

Also,I think masalah syariah court bukan with hukum but implementation (delayed not NOT DONE at all) There are happy stories too.I will not over-rule syariah court.Tanpanya lagi susah kita.It's a matter of getting a good syariah lawyer.Itu je.

Kalau nak cari isu, civil court pun bukan perfect sgt.Lingam case?

4.True, liwat is not new.Neither is fitnah.Nabi Yusuf pun kena.Mariam pun kena. Nabi Muhammad pun kena.

Kita lihat adegan selanjutnya?
1. Topeng/Chinese paper. Would rather pakai topeng cos Anwar is no Tom Dick or Harry like u said. Lets give him special treatment then!
2. Sumpah. U agreed its perceptions. Can't say much since in Law & in the eyes of Allah, that don't count!
3. Syariah vs Civil Laws. Nothing wrong with both, its the people implementing them. Agree. But don't use quran & hadith when it suits us only. Pls ask Anwar to sumpah Quran, I will believe he did not do it.
4. Apa pulak kaitan Norita, Lingam, budak hilang? Norita was murdered. Hanif charged but acquitted. Who is the real murderer, waallahualam. Similarly, Azizan was sodomised. Anwar was charged but acquitted. Who is the real sodomite, waallahualam!
Lingam tu bukan kat Court. Itu kat Suruhanjaya Siasatan. See the difference?
Budak hilang jgn lah salahkan undang2. Nak salahkan polis pun tak adil lah. Mana nak jaga pencuri lagi, peliwat lagi, ceramah politik lagi, demonstrasi lagi, mcm2 lah.
5. of the oldest profession maybe. Agree. Kalau kita di fitnah & ada pihak yg nak siasat samada fitnah ke atau kebenaran....biar lah disiasat. Jgn lah lah kata tak caya ke etc etc. Doa org kena fitnah tu org alim2 kata Allah makbulkan. Kita tengok je lah.
6. Surely I will not want a leader who has homosexual tendencies...
7. "Kita lihat adegan selanjutnya"...Too much drama melayu in U. Thats what I can say. Tak wife pun suka tengok drama cina. Glued tu the TV from 8.30 till 9.30 pm tiap2 malam...apa yg dia faham pun I tak tau...

You are trivialising issues yang you tak suka e.g topeng and as speacial treatment.Takpa I will leave it at that since the perbincangan is going in a circle.No point.

On Norita and other unsolved cases: you kata baik to be proactive so why can't we be proactive in other things juga? Why be selective? Lepas tu kata polis tak terhandle sebab byk sgt crimes.

On tak mau leaders with homo tendencies, like it's proven! (byk leaders kaki zina,kaki botol, tak pa pulak?)What is the difference?

My expression 'adegan selanjutnya' was polite.It could have been "let's watch the political baduts/political circus' further.
Got U Faridah,
I was checking your political inclination...since u r from Raub. Jangan marah ye...Hidup MSSR!
Tak marah and tak inclined ke mana2 or ke sapa2 (in this case).Just a keen interest that justice is observed. :)

I'd vote for PAS if you really wanna know.Husam to be exact.Bukan kerana (sahaja)dia hensem bergaya berilmu agama tetapi kalau dalam parlimen nampak macam dia je yang serious dan bersedia.We pray power does not get to him.

Kalau tak, I may go as independent calon macam makcik tua yang kempen naik basikal tu. :))
U have the Kelantan connection by marriage? No wonder u voted in Kelantan ye? OK
hahaha, maybe.I like things Kelantan.Makanannya sedap.Negerinya damai.Takda bangunan tinggi mencakar langit tak tentu arah.But I hear now traffic pun terok (have not been back for so long cos' in laws all in KL and aging.Mereka pun jarang balik KB)

But Husam IS good, what.So is Ku Li.So if not Husam, Ku Li? The other Minister I like is Mustapa Mohamed (the best KPT Minister in recent years we ever have.A real worker, a good listener.Dia suka ajak rakyat makan kat rumah and the wife so nice and tak sombong)

Go, Kelantan, go! (but my heart is still with Pahang, don't worry).:)
I know this is digging old story.. but its is nice to tell others why the use of balaclavas by the UTK/SWAT etc.

Is to protect the identity of the officer on duty.

Speaking about proactive. Is to protect the officer on duty which is clearly he just doing his own duty on command. For a big influence personal, with a die hard follower, if the personal does his work which is according to his job ethics which may be will have to use force. What will happen to him after he's work is done successfully? Any guarantee that these fella still be safe from sok-sek of orang kampung or worse?

Post a Comment

No comment moderation but need to know who is commenting. Please let us know who you are. Keep it as professional as possible. Didn't we agree to disagree? Regards and best wishes.(DSN)

Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]

<< Home

This page is powered by Blogger. Isn't yours?

Subscribe to Posts [Atom]